7mm Rem Mag good tactical option??

[Spooky8]

Does anyone know if the 7mm magnum would be considered an optimum tactical round? Could this cartridge be used in an 18" barrel? What about recoil?

Regards,

Spooky8

[Dave W]

Optimum for what? I think they're always trade-offs.

[Cleck]

Same question here Dave W...

Spooky, please let us know the standards by which you are measuring. A top fuel dragster might be optimum if you are wanting to go real fast in a straight line, but not if you want to do so on city streets. If you want to take turns real fast, an original mini cooper might be optimum but not if it is off-road. I hope this explains what I (we) mean... there are many things that may be "optimum" for certain scenarios, but not others.

[Spooky8]

OK...I'll be more specific...7mm vs .308. Would the 7mm rem magnum have better accuracy at long range out 1000yds. Would the 7mm rem mag have less down range wind deflection. Is it a flatter shooting cartridge. Last but not least, would the cartridge shoot well from an 18" barrel?

Hope this makes sense.... or am I comparing apples to oranges..

Regards,

Spooky8

[Cleck]

Originally Posted by Spooky8

OK...I'll be more specific...7mm vs .308. Would the 7mm rem magnum have better accuracy at long range out 1000yds. Would the 7mm rem mag have less down range wind deflection. Is it a flatter shooting cartridge. Last but not least, would the cartridge shoot well from an 18" barrel?

Hope this makes sense.... or am I comparing apples to oranges..

Regards,

Spooky8

Thanks, I know what you mean now.

1000yd accuracy? - This of course depends on the entire platform and not just the caliber, as I am sure you are aware. Just the caliber alone, according to the ballistics of the cartridge, the 7mm does have a theoretical better performance at longer distances. Bullet weight the same, the 7mm should be able to maintain supersonic performance at a longer distance than .308. And since it is traveling faster, it is exposed to the same wind a smaller amount of time and the same gravity for a smaller amount of time.... less of a chance for wind to affect the bullet and less time for the bullet to fall in flight.

However, gravity and wind are still affecting this bullet, just not as much noticeably than with the .308. So, you will still be holding for wind and adjusting your dope with either caliber....just less so with the 7mm.

As far as an 18" barrel, I am sorry but I have no idea. I could speculate, but we all try not to do that on here when providing information to each other. I ask that only people that have actually done this and seen the results answer to what they think an 18" barrel will do. I recommend that if someone buys a 7mm and wants to do some crazy fancy barrel change for some reason, to use the factory barrel to test accuracy...cutting it one inch at a time.

People like to talk about cutting it down until they see a difference in performance... but once you see the difference, you can't glue the last 1" back on. So, if it is ruined, they planned on some super special barrel replacement anyway.

I have a question for you now... why 7mm? .308 is much more readily available and a great standard to use as a team (PITA to have different calibers on a team). And if the .308 isn't enough for you.. what about .300 win mag? I guess I am just a fan of military rounds... easy to find.

[Spooky8]

Cleck:

Why 7mm? Well, I thought it would be better accuracy at longer ranges than .308, but less punishing than 300 win mag, sort of in between .308 and 300 win mag. It would also give better barrel life. I understand 300 win mag is hell on barrel life. Recoil less severe than 300 win mag...not that I'm a whimp...but after 18 years of fighting chemical induced suspects as a LEO...my shoulders are kind of beat up.....

Plus I understand its a good hunting round...


Hope my reasoning is not that skewed...

Spooky8

out

[Dave W]

"........but after 18 years of fighting chemical induced suspects as a LEO...my shoulders are kind of beat up..... "

My .308win has a thick kick-EEZ pad installed on it. If the desire for less "felt recoil", that is more comfortable shooting, is the measure of whimptum then I'm the biggest whimp of all. Truth is my shoulder is in good shape and I can shoot 3inch 12gauge slugs with out any real pain or serious discomfort. I focus better on fundamentals with the recoil pad that's what I really like about it. If your shoulder is the issue try a good recoil pad, I do like my Kick EEZ pad, and a muzzle brake.

I'd be willing to bet everyone on this web board has considered what the "best cartridge" is. While I don't own any a local group of tactical competition shooters here really like the .260 remington. The 6.5 creedmore might be another that fits your bill if you want to go "non standard" rounds. For me ammo availability and costs are major considerations.

[Cleck]

Originally Posted by Spooky8

Cleck:

Why 7mm? Well, I thought it would be better accuracy at longer ranges than .308, but less punishing than 300 win mag, sort of in between .308 and 300 win mag. It would also give better barrel life. I understand 300 win mag is hell on barrel life. Recoil less severe than 300 win mag...not that I'm a whimp...but after 18 years of fighting chemical induced suspects as a LEO...my shoulders are kind of beat up.....

Plus I understand its a good hunting round...


Hope my reasoning is not that skewed...

Spooky8

out

I mostly agree with Dave. A muzzle brake may make a big difference, but I personally am not a huge fan of big recoil pads. I would not go as far as to say that they are bad, I just notice that some of the fancier recoil pads I have shot do their job by allowing the rifle to compress the pad a bit into my shoulder in order to do their job. They allow the rifle to move back a bit while the pad is squished in order to work. The force from the rifle can not be removed by the recoil pad, but the impulse can be spread over a longer period of time and over a bit of a bigger surface area.

One of my famous hypotheticals to get my point across.. your hand on a table with a brick falling on it vs. your hand on a table, with some foam on it and a brick falling on it. The brick is still exerting the same force in both scenarios (it doesn't know any better )but the foam would feel much better. When the brick hits the foam, instead of coming to a rest like it would with just your hand present, it is allowed to move as it squishes the foam. The foam allows the impulse to be spread out a bit longer, and as the foam conforms to your hand, it makes a bigger surface area to distribute the weight rather than only the spots on the brick that actually touch your knuckles.

So, good recoil pad = much more comfort. However, good recoil pad also may = more movement in the rifle as the bullet is leaving the barrel. May sound silly and small, but it is enough for me not to be a fan of the super good/squishy ones. They also can be known to lurch the rifle back forward a bit out of your shoulder after the recoil is complete. It can be brutal on your shoulder (and therefore may not be a good idea for you) but if the weapon doesn't jostle around too much, you can effectively stay on target and send some rapid accurate rounds down range without having to re-acquire the target from the rifle bouncing too much. This is very similar to why snipers have accuracy issues with bipods on concrete.. the weapon bounces too much while firing.

Whew... long recoil pad answer later.... A recoil pad may be a great option for you and your shoulder if that is what you need to shoot. I wanted to just explain why they may not be ideal in every scenario or why I personally am not a big fan of them.

As far as "best cartridge", you seem like you have a good rationale for wanting the 7mm. I wan to make sure you understand that we try to not say you have to use one thing or another here. I am glad you gave me your reasons and I can see some merit in them. I personally think a .308 would be fine for you (which I why I use it), but I don't shoot 1000 yards all day. You also have a good reason why not .300 win mag. They just aren't that fun to shoot all day and they are famous for inducing bad habits in shooters.

So, if you want the 7mm... you should get it, put a muzzle brake on it and perhaps even a good recoil pad and go to the range and have fun shooting. Just because we may prefer one cartridge doesn't mean you have to. Just please be aware of the potential drawbacks... not a NATO/easily available cartridge, not as likely to have a spotter with the same round (makes it a little bit harder doing spotter follow up shots, and you can borrow ammo if either of you run out), it is going to be more expensive, and I'm not sure how small of a package you can get.

[Spooky8]

Cleck:

I like how you think...your reasoning is sound and based on fact...I'll stick with .308...

Semper Fi,

Spooky8

[Wall]

Well another voice heard from - mine...

My rifle is a 7mm Rem Mag. I stayed with that cartridge when I built up my rifle. Both Mr. Schneider* and Mr. Lasner* asked why I wanted to stick with the 7mm Rem Mag in my new barrel rather than re-barreling in 7.62. The answer was no more complicated than the simple reason that I didn't want to reload for yet another cartridge.

The 7mm Rem Mag is an "obsolete" case design as there is no advantage in head spacing off the belt instead of the case shoulder. Moreover there are modern 7mm cartridges with very similar performance in shorter cases. It is true that the Secret Service used it for some time as their sniper cartridge.

Ballistically the 7mm Rem Mag is superior to the 7.62, the question is whether you can take advantage of the difference. I am not saying that I can but if you are a good enough shot, you can. The observations that the ballistic superiority reduces flight time and the effect that wind will have on the bullet are accurate.

If you are using a heavy barrel and the weight of your rifle is over 12 pounds, recoil shouldn't/won't be a problem. Mine comes in at just under 14 pounds and it has a recoil pad 1" thick which HS PRecision recommended - a fairly firm Pachymer. I don't think it is really necessary but it hasn't been a problem either.

Back to ballistics. Between a cartridge with a higher velocity shooting a 168 gr bullet and a 24" barrel vs an 18" barrel, my 7mm Rem Mag pumps bullets out about 400 fps faster. At 920 yards I am 22.75 to 25 MOA up from my 100 yard zero depending on temperature and altitude. At 1200 I come up 53.5 to 56.5 MOA. If memory serves that is a fairly significant difference from the 7.62.

Were my barrel to be cut to 18", the rifle would certainly be handier. No doubt about it. Recoil would be more noticeable due to the rifle's lighter weight and ballistic efficiency would suffer by something in the range of 200 to 250 fps.

The 7mm Rem Mag requires a long action vs the short action used by the 7.62. This means you need to lift your face further off the stock when you rack the bolt because the bolt comes back further. Again not a major factor but a factor to consider and perhaps try out.

Regarding trying out, my thought here is line up a couple of friends who have rifles you are considering and try them out. Email me on this...

* Gary Schneider, Schneider Rifle Barrels makes all the barrels for the Marine Corps' M40A3s. He makes good stuff. Mr. Schneider recommended Rick Lasner of RalCo Custom to assemble my rifle. Without boring you with details, Mr. Lasner focuses on details, works to the limits of perfection and is incredibly knowledgeable.